I really want something like a Glock 30 or an Officer's size 45ACP pistol. Mainly because the shortest 45ACP I own has a 4.25" barrel.

I like big bullets but I also like them to go fast -- hence why I am a 10mm fan. Spare me how you don't need speed. My first pistol was a 5" 1911 and that was a long time ago. I don't need to be sold on the fact 45ACP it works. I am not debating that. However, the 45ACP is an incredibly LOW pressure round @ ~18,500 CUP (how old school is CUP?) it WILL lose velocity quickly with shorter barrels. It is one of the main arguments that 45GAP has going for it (loses little in say a 3.5" bbl platform).

Conventional wisdom would say that, on average, a round will lose 20-30-40-50 fps per 1/2" or barrel loss. I know quite a range, no?

Doing a little looking I was able to find some info posted by the late Stephen Camp. I trust his #'s 100%. For those that didn't know him, he was a gentleman and also a HiPower guru. It comes from this THR thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-102573.html. This is good info and is pretty close to BBTI's estimate of 787fps.

The most significant result is that, at least to me, (very) short barrel ballistics for the 45ACP is virtually identical to short barrel 40S&W. The 40S&W loses little in a 3.5" platform--in some loads as little as 30fps from a 4"--when comparing 40/180 to 45/185. Keep in mind that a 40/180 gives you the same sectional density of a 45/230. I know that to a lot of folks 45/230 is still king and might think it blasphemy to move away from 230gr you might find it noteworthy that John M. Browning actually designed the 45ACP to be a 200gr bullet. Anyway, I find 45/185 to be very accurate. A 40/180 just as accurate, much more common and cheaper to shoot.

Stephen A. Camp
September 21, 2004, 12:45 AM
Hello. As part of a project I'm doing, I recently borrowed a Colt Defender, a compact variation of John Browning's 1911. Several different commercial loads were chronographed to see just how much velocity these short barrel pistols lost.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid139/pd1df4a71d3bb361154843750ed5db12d/f70042cd.jpg
The gun's owner replaced the factory grips and installed/fitted Swenson ambis as he's left-handed.

I had a ballpark idea but had never checked any of these over a chronograph as I don't own any 1911 pattern pistol with shorter than a 4 1/4" barrel.

That does not mean that other folks don't and I figured the results might be of some interest to them. Figures are based on 10 shots fired approx. 10' from the chronograph screen.

Remington 185-gr. MC-Flat Nose:
Average Velocity: 923 ft/sec

Federal 185-gr. Classic JHP:
Average Velocity: 885 ft/sec

Corbon 200-gr. JHP +P:
Average Velocity: 958 ft/sec

Sellier & Bellot 230-gr. FMJ:
Average Velocity: 722 ft/sec

Winchester USA 230-gr. FMJ:
Average Velocity: 765 ft/sec

Federal 230-gr. Hydrashok:
Average Velocity: 799 ft/sec

Winchester Ranger 230-gr. JHP:
Average Velocity: 797 ft/sec

Winchester Ranger 230-gr. JHP+P:
Average Velocity: 866 ft/sec

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid139/p1d156f457cdd806908ddd0a8721f5c65/f70042d4.jpg
The Federal 185-gr. JHP (left) and the standard pressure Winchester Ranger SXT (RA45T) were fired into water and both expanded nicely. The Federal JHP's jacket separated. This is more common in water than in tissue. The SXT round expanded slightly less than when fired out of a 5" barrel. A police officer who attended a Ballistics Seminar
put on by Winchester advises that they do recommend use of the +P version in pistols having less than 4" barrels to insure more certain expansion should the bullet pass through barriers before striking the target.

Best.

Since I mentioned the Glock 30 here (from http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/45acp/rem45-185gs+p-g30.htm) is the Remington Golden Saber 185gr +P clocked:

.45 ACP Remington 185gr +P Golden Saber Brass JHP
Test Weapon: Glock 30, 3.8" bbl Bare
Gelatin Denim Covered
Gelatin
10 rd Avg. Velocity: 1034 fps
General-Purpose Combat Capability Optimal Satisfactory

and

GL 30 230gr HydraShok average 813fps

and some more...

Some Kimber 5" Custom vs 4" Kimber Pro (15' from muzzle):
5" 185gr Remington Golden Saber 1153fps
4" 185gr Remington Golden saber 1007fps

5" Corbon 185gr +P 1185fps
4" Corbon 185gr +P 1041fps

Here is a really good page with Kimber CDP 3", Cold Commander 4.25", Ruger BH 4.6", and Colt Govt 5" (!) chronograph ballistics: http://stevespages.com/page8f45acp.html

Wondering about the G21 vs G20? Well, I have some data from a website no longer available too:

Corbon 165gr BHP+P ----------------------------- 1160 vs 1096
Federal 165gr Personal Defense ----------------- 1083 vs 1023
Remington 185gr Golden Saber ------------------- 961 vs 913
Remington 185gr+P Golden Saber ----------------- 1040 vs 993
Win 185gr SilverTip ---------------------------- 922 vs 875
CorBon 200gr+P JHP ----------------------------- 1072 vs 1019
CorBon 230gr+P JHP ----------------------------- 937 vs 904
Fed 230gr HydraShok ---------------------------- 919 vs 860
Hornady 230gr+P XTP ---------------------------- 943 vs 886
Rem 230gr Golden Saber ------------------------- 852 vs 825
Win 230gr SXT ---------------------------------- 889 vs 840

Now I am off to find some 357magnum short barrel ballistics. Have a good night.
Settle down, Angus!

How many times on an internet forum have you seen discussions about "gun x vs bear" or "will my (favorite cartridge) stop a bear" or "I am going hiking with my 380 and worried about bear..."? Much grief, angst and much speculation always fills these threads.

Anyway, in Buffalo Bore's FAQ I found an excellent article on the topic: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=108

“Stopping” bears with handgun or rifle cartridges

I get asked about this OFTEN. Having killed dozens of bear and guided hunters for dozens more, I have firsthand knowledge. Additionally, I have been hanging around bear guides all my adult life and between us, we’ve seen over a thousand bears killed. We have come to some consensus on the best tools and methods of killing bears with guns.

First, not all bears are the same. Grizzly bears have a much different mindset than the black bears species. To stop a grizzly attack, you will PROBABLY have to kill it, but sometimes all you have to do is to hurt it badly and the bear will become dissuaded. So, when planning to stop grizzly attacks, it is best to use a cartridge that will kill it—the quicker the better. Interior grizzlies normally get no bigger than 500 lbs, but in Montana, I’ve seen interior bears around 900 lbs., but this is very rare. Coastal grizzlies, sometimes known as Alaskan Brown Bears, often exceed 1000 lbs. If you are relying on shoulder or heart/lung shots to kill such a bear, it takes a lot of cartridge. One that will make a big hole that goes very deeply through bone and into internal organs. If you hit him fatally in the chest area, you will then have roughly 15 to 30 seconds to stay alive before the bear learns he is dead. If you are relying on brain shots, it is not all that hard to kill adult grizzly bears. Almost any center fire cartridge of 357 bore or larger with a very hard non-expanding, flat nosed bullet will pierce a bears skull with direct /frontal (between the eyes) hits. From the side angle, shoot them right at the bottom of the ear canal. These two shots are instant death, if you are using correct ammo. The old MYTH that bullets will slide off a bear’s skull is pure hogwash, when using modern ammo featuring bullets that will not mushroom when fired out of a powerful handgun. When using high powered rifles, it is OK if the bullet mushrooms as the high velocity of the rifle bullet, will puncture the bears skull regardless, because of its high velocity. 150 years ago, when the early settlers were heading west, the muzzle loaders they used, fired pure lead (very soft) round balls that would or could flatten out against bone and possibly slide off, leaving only a surface wound, when hitting a bears head. Unless you are using pure lead bullets that are rounded, this situation is no longer a concern.

Black bears are very different mentally, than grizzly bears. Black bears come in red, brown, blonde, and black color phases, but they are all black bear species and should be considered “black bears” regardless of color phase. While black bears have much the same physical qualities (normally smaller) of grizzly bears, they GENERALLY have a much different mindset.

To stop black bears, all you have to do is hurt them; you do not need to kill them. Almost any center fire handgun cartridge will dissuade a black bear if you hit them well with it. The more powerful the cartridge, the more damage you’ll potentially do to the bear, but nearly any black bear will turn tail if he is hit with a cartridge such as good stiff 9mm load. I know this argues against prevailing wisdom, but prevailing wisdom is based mostly on speculation, not real world experience and is not really wisdom.

We make “bear loads” in smaller chamberings such as 9mm, (item 24F) 38 SPL+P, (item 20H) and 357 mag. (item 19A). We do this because a lot of people own those guns and don’t want to buy a 454 Casull or 44 mag. I would have no problem defending myself against a black bear attack (and have done so) with the proper 9mm ammo. I prefer a more powerful/bigger cartridge, but the 9MM will get it done, even on grizzlies, if you take their brain. Of course, making a brain shot under such duress, will take practice and cool nerves.

I hike, ride horses, hunt and fish in grizzly country. When relying on a handgun, I carry a 500 or 475 Linebaugh with heavy hard cast, flat nosed bullets. It hammers grizzlies. Such a revolver weighs no more than a standard Ruger Black Hawk, but has the killing power of a moderately powerful rifle cartridge. I find the big heavy X frame revolvers (500 S&W and 460 S&W) too heavy for hiking in steep country all day, but they do possess incredible power. However, if I am going to carry a handgun that weighs 5+ pounds, I’d just as soon carry a 6 pound rifle chambered in 45-70 that has a longer sight radius, more power and is shoulder mounted.

If I carry a rifle in grizzly country, which I do often, I carry a lever action 45-70 for summer horse pack trips, hikes and fishing excursions. I load it with Buffalo Bore items 8A, 8B or 8C. All three of these loads flatten grizzlies. I carry a revolver chambered in 500 Linebaugh too, along with the rifle. The handgun stays on my person in a shoulder holster and the rifle stays on the horse or in camp, unless I am feeling the need to have it in my hands, which does and has happened and has kept me from being injured/killed more than once. I have used both revolvers and rifles on bears, several times. When I elk hunt in grizzly country, I normally use a 338 Win. Mag. With proper ammo, the 338 Win Mag. is a decisive grizzly stopper. See our items 52A, 52B and 52D, (which will be released before summer 2012) for this application.

There are many in our society who believe the life of an animal has equal or greater value than that of a human. I disagree. A bear is a wild animal, that when not threatening human life, is a wonderful sight. However, when I encounter bears that act aggressively by popping their teeth, woofing, swinging their head from side to side, charging, etc. I shoot them. I do not give them a prolonged chance to kill my wife, children, myself or any one that is with me. When I encounter bears (which I do several times per year) that run at my sight or smell, they are safe from me because I know I am safe from them. When they show aggression to humans, it is irresponsible to let them live as they will eventually permanently harm or kill someone. I don’t care that our governmental wild life agencies are protecting bears. They are generally misguided in this tactic. The notion that bears are a spiritual, magical life form that has value over human life, is a point of view that not only comes from the typical tree hugger groups/mindset, but it is coming from various fish and game agencies, more and more often. I choose to protect human life over animal life, period. The notion that bears were here before us and therefore have rights to maul us, is not only untrue, but even if it was true, I am here NOW and assert my right to be so.

Bear aggression and attacks are far more common that most fish and game agencies want to report. In 2011, in Montana, there were seven REPORTED grizzly attacks on humans. Some of them were fatal to the human. Others simply mauled the human, who recovered from injuries. There were doubtless more attacks, but they happened to capable and prepared individuals who simply killed the bear and walked away, never wanting the problems that come with reporting the incident to “authorities”. I’ve had more scrapes with black bears than I have with grizzlies, but that is probably because there are a lot more black bears in the woods. Do not let yourself be misled by fish and game agencies that claim “black bears are not dangerous” or likewise about grizzlies. There is no need to be afraid of bears, but there is great reason to be informed and prepared. For those who don’t feel the need to be prepared in bear country, that is your right, but what about your obligation to protect your loved ones and others who rely on you? Every time I see an interview with a wild life official explaining away a recent fatal bear attack, they ALWAYS say something to the effect of “such bear attacks are extremely rare bla, bla, bla”. Truth is that bear attacks are not all that rare if you spend time in bear country and even if such attacks were rare, the person that has just experienced one, had a 100% chance of being attacked, no?

People argue this continuously. Yes, I know that people claim to do it all the time. They put a lot of trust on their 10mm's extractor to hold the 40 casing. It may work. Until it doesn't. It only takes one not to work to ruin your day.

Anyway, I was surprised to find this from Speer's FAQ: http://www.speer-ammo.com/general/faq.aspx#q25

Q. Can I shoot 40 S&W ammo in my 10mm pistol? The case is identical except for length.
A. No. Both headspace on the case mouth. The shorter 40 S&W will not be supported in the 10mm chamber, so headspace control is lost. You'll get misfires, blown primers, deformed cases and, potentially, gas jetting from the action. Always use the correct ammunition for your firearm. Don't cut corners!

Hi all,
I just uploaded some good reads in the "Ballistics" section in Downloads if you are interested in that sort of thing.

Here is what Feinstein proposes. Basically, if it isnt completely banned requires NFA registration of anything that can take a magazine. Even that 1911 has 10+ shot mags available!

This includes a new background check, fingerprints, local LEA approval and registration!

Don't forget the $200 tax stamp per item!

http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/assault-weapons

this is why we ccw. did you know that in Canada even off duty cops cannot carry a firearm? http://m.townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2012/12/18/mass-murder-prevented-by-offduty-cop-n1469380

I just confirmed with GSSF that Glock Armorers are no longer eligible for the purchase program. Previously, Armorers (that are not first responders) could buy (2) Blue Label Glock pistols. This decision was made in September and no notification was given. I only found out due a single sentence stating it in the new "Glock Report" which I received on Sat.

I emailed GSSF for clarification and received this:

"GLOCK, Inc. has discontinued the additional discount purchases for all Armorers. The went into effect at the end of September. This included all armorers. Unfortunately, we were given no advance notice regarding this change.

GSSF members are still eligible for one pistol purchase coupon per year. That program has remained unchanged."

Just got the Volume II, 2012 "Glock Report" and it says:

GSSF members are no longer eligible to purchase additional firearms through their Armorer certifiction

WHAT??? I was just about to make a XMAS-present-to-myself purchase - a Gen4 30. If I am no longer eligible for blue label then, to be honest, I will need to re-evaluate other brands.

I have emailed GSSF for clarification. Googling brings up nothing either.

NWCN Article

Oregon News
Clackamas man, armed, confronts mall shooter

by Mike Benner

NWCN.com

Posted on December 14, 2012 at 11:03 PM

PORTLAND, Ore ... Nick Meli is emotionally drained. The 22-year-old was at Clackamas Town Center with a friend and her baby when a masked man opened fire.

"I heard three shots and turned and looked at Casey and said, 'are you serious?'"

The friend and baby hit the floor. Meli, who has a concealed carry permit, positioned himself behind a pillar.

"He was working on his rifle," said Meli. "He kept pulling the charging handle and hitting the side."

The break in gunfire allowed Meli to pull out his own gun, but he never took his eyes off the shooter.

"As I was going down to pull I saw someone in the back of the charlotte move and I knew if I fired and missed I could hit them."

Meli took cover inside a nearby store. He never pulled the trigger. He stands by that decision.

"I'm not beating myself up cause I didn't shoot him," said Meli. "I know after he saw me I think the last shot he fired was the one he used on himself."

The gunman was dead, but not before taking two innocent lives with him and taking the innocence of everyone else.

"I don't ever want to see anyone that way ever," said Meli. "It just bothers me."